And there was light: evidence for the origin of our Universe

“Then God said, “Let there be light”, and there was light”.

Genesis 1:3

The concept of creation out of nothing was a completely radical idea in antiquity. It was the Jewish religion that first introduced such a radical concept. Most, if not all, creation myths in antiquity parted from the premise that there was something before the formation of the universe. It is very tempting to point that such radical idea most closely resembles what today’s scientist call the Big Bang.

WMAP_skymap

The Big Bang theory states that the observable universe is the result of a massive explosion that occurred about 13.7 billion years ago. It was as if the universe obeyed God’s command “Let there be light,” and there was the Big Bang. Although the Big Bang theory is agnostic whether or not anything existed before the Big Bang, it clearly argues that our observable universe had a beginning.

Unknown

The idea of the Big Bang was not immediately accepted. The Aristotelian view of an eternal and static universe was accepted scientific theory up to the 1930’s. It was a Jesuit priest named Fr. George Lemaitre that first proposed the idea of a “primeval atom”, which today we called the Big Bang theory. Fr. Lemaitre based his theory on Einstein’s theory of relativity that, states the expansion of space and the discovery that galaxies are accelerating away from each other by astronomers Hubble and Humason in 1929. He argued that if galaxies are moving away from each other, then it follows that the further you go back in time the closer those galaxies are going to be and if you go far enough there is going to be a point where the size of the universe is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a sub-atomic particle: a “primeval atom”. Fr. Lemaitre succinctly explains his theory in the abstract for his 1931 publication in the science journal, Nature:

“SIR ARTHUR EDDINGTON states that, philosophically, the notion of a beginning of the present order of Nature is repugnant to him. I would rather be inclined to think that the present state of quantum theory suggests a beginning of the world very different from the present order of Nature. Thermodynamical principles from the point of view of quantum theory may be stated as follows : (1) Energy of constant total amount is distributed in discrete quanta. (2) The number of distinct quanta is ever increasing. If we go back in the course of time we must find fewer and fewer quanta, until we find all the energy of the universe packed in a few or even in a unique quantum”.

Nature 127, 706 (9 May 1931)

penzias_wilson-2

Ironically, his theory was considered to be too religious by some since it pointed towards a beginning and in doing so it pointed to a creation. The Big Bang was confirmed by the finding of the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation by Nobel laureate recipients Penzias and Wilson in 1964 (Picture). Cosmologists Ralph Alpher and Robert Herman predicted this radiation in 1948 to be the remnant radiation of the Big Bang. Its temperature is exactly the temperature that physicists estimated it should be if it was from the Big Bang. Moreover the total amount of helium estimated to be present in the universe could only be accounted by the Big Bang because not enough time has passed for it to be produced by nuclear reactions inside of stars.

There is much speculation as to what happen before the Big Bang. At least two theories propose possible scenarios in which the Big Bang is not the beginning of the universe: eternal inflation and ekpyrotic models. It is not the scope of this post to explain in detail these purely mathematical theories other than to make readers aware that they are current working hypothesis. However, independently whether or not these theories are accurate an elegant mathematical theorem, developed by Borde, Vilenkin and Guth (BVG Theorem), demonstrates that any universe that has a Hubble expansion constant greater than zero has to have a beginning:

“We made no assumptions about the material content of the universe…The only assumption that we made was that the expansion rate of the universe never gets below some nonzero value, no matter how small. This assumption should certainly be satisfied in the inflating false vacuum. The conclusion is that past-eternal inflation without a beginning is impossible”.

Vilenki 2006, p 175 (Taken from “New Proof for the Existence of God”)

In other words, any universe or multi-verse has to have a beginning and since according to the principle of sufficient reason any beginning must have a cause, the question remains what caused the universe to begin?

In my next post, I will discuss, how science demonstrates the infinitesimally small probability that the observable universe was caused by random chance. Taken together the evidence from modern physics and philosophical/metaphysical arguments, it is reasonable to believe that God created the universe, out of nothing.

God Bless!

Please note:

I owed the inspiration of this post to Fr. Benedict Groechel talk, God the Father, which until recently could be found at EWTN for free download. The scientific and philosophical arguments were mostly taken from Fr. Robert Spitzer book: New Proof for the Existence of God.

I hope that I did not do any disservice to their work by my poor abilities to articulate it.

Also note, that there is a third hypothesis that states that the Big Bang is the result of an ongoing cycle of expansion and contractions, each one producing a new big bang and thereby a new universe. I did not include this hypothesis for the sake of brevity and the fact that it has been discredited by the observation that galaxy are moving irreversibly away from each other at an increasingly faster pace. Making it impossible for the predicted Big Crunch to happen. Moreover, evidence from the law of thermodynamics clearly indicates that even in this bouncing universe scenario, it must also have to have a beginning.

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29 thoughts on “And there was light: evidence for the origin of our Universe”

  1. A great message Caleb, with much Truth, I’m sorry it has taken me so long to visit you again, I was involved in a few long conversations on my Blog but finally they were resolved or more likely not, advice and correction is not always welcomed even if needed.

    I do very much appreciate genuine Scientific findings like you have shared and from others I have read over the years but the way God showed me His reality of Creation was different and easier for me to understand. I will share about it in your next Post, I hope you don’t mind detail as it is a bit involved but I will also leave a link to a Power point I created for Nick my Grandson by Marriage to help condense, I have also shared other messages that show why Evolution does not fit in with Creation and have used humour to do so too.

    Why am I so passionate about this Truth because as a young Teenager in High School, I lost my Bests friend Jesus or so I thought, when I was told I came from an Ape and Jesus and the Bible were just made up and as my Mother confirmed what the Teacher told me, I believed it was True, that was until someone like yourself, gave me doubts when I was in my Thirties but not before I messed up my life. .

    Keep on sharing the good News Caleb …our God is indeed God of the impossible.

    Christian Love in our Unity in Christ Jesus – Anne.

    1. Dear Anne,

      Thanks for the encouragement! I agree with you like any relationship it always have to start with the heart! I will love to hear about your story. Although I personally don’t find any incongruency between evolution and creation, as long as it does not rule out that there is a creator, I appreciate different view points on the subject. I think it is great that you are involved with grandson…my granparent pass away a while ago I missed them so very much. Their example of love and care really build up my faith when I was a kid.

      Cheers,

      Caleb

      1. Perhaps Caleb it would make for less detail from me if you shared how God has showed you that His Creation fits in with Evolution but please don’t use links just the Scripture He gave you to confirm His Truth in this very important reality because to believe in both is a contradiction, it’s either Creation or Evolution, apart from Evolution Scientists findings that also agree with Creation such as the fittest survive and mutations, meaning weaknesses in the gene structure through illness. But if you can show me differently in the Bible, than I will seek God for His confirmation on what you have shared.

        I’m not sure how old you are Caleb but you can call me Grannie Annie if you want to, many do even those who have their own Children.

        Christian Love from both of us – Anne (Grannie Annie)

      2. Hey Annie,

        You must be a cool grannie! Yup, my mom still thinks that I am her baby so I guess that makes me fairly young! I appreciate your comments and oppeness concerning the question of evolution and creation…let me think about it and reply to you soon (I dont have time…thing about time is that I hardly have enough of it!).

        Cheers,

        Caleb

        Thanks for the observation about Twenty Fourteen Theme…I may have to change it…again time!

      3. Dear Annie,

        I am so sorry for such delayed response. To answer your question I don’t think that I can prove through scripture that God created us through evolution. However, I don’t think that evolution contradicts creation.

        I believe that Scripture do convey a transcendent truth. That is that there is a Creator and that He made us in his image. However I don’t hold a literalistic interpretation of the Book of Genesis. I think that the author intention was not to convey an historical account of creation but to explain some fundamental truths. In other words I think the Book of Genesis care much more about “why” God created us rather than “how” God created us. Just imagine how difficult it would have been to explain DNA and processes like natural selection to ancient tribal people. I think it would have been cumbersome and distracting. Furthermore he still gave us reason to figure out the details through observation and science.

        I strongly recommend you to read this article from Jimmy Aiken about different ways to interpret the Book of Genesis:

        http://jimmyakin.com/2006/02/genesis_one.html

        He does a great job articulating the issues. I hope this helps!

        Big hug from the States!

  2. Just as a point of interest Caleb, this Twenty Fourteen Theme has a very big problem which I have noticed on other Blogs who use it too, as you can see above in the comments, it cuts words in half which can cause confusion.

    I often wonder why people do not check important details before they promote something new but instead when they find their faulty they will often they to promote other things to cover up their error instead of admitting they are wrong, it’s called fleshy pride.

    We can say the same about Darwin can’t we, he thought he knew better than God’s Truth in His inspired word in the Scriptures, not that WordPress are Christian but there are important Truths we can learn in other peoples mistakes regardless of who they are, if we have clear vision to see them.

    Blessings – Anne

  3. God tells us Caleb that all the Scriptures are His inspired words not just some of them, they are His thoughts, His Heart Convictions, His guidelines for us, His proof of His existence, we can’t say this part of the Bible is not relevant and others are.

    The Book of Genesis is the foundation of the Bible, in it is proof of God’s existence and Jesus’ Divinity and The Godhead or Trinity as They are called today but also that He did indeed create the earth in six days.

    Evolution Scientists have not established that there is no God, even after trying for many years, they are still working on theories without facts, they have never been able to create viable life from nothing or even from simple substances like jelly larva which they said were we evolved from and the Big Bang is proven as you said to be a fallacy, the only things they have found agree with Creation too and even their dating of the earth has proven to be in error but we knew that was impossible by the Scriptures and even by Secular History and fossils.

    We have a belly button that no other animal has or has ever had, so we couldn’t have evolved from one also when Man had no way of knowing, the Bible tells us the earth was round, man believed it was flat for many years after this was recorded and God tells us about D.N.A and even Aids and there was no Pathology in those days. He told us many others things too that have come True and others that will come true, we can already see the beginnings of them.

    I will leave you a link Calab that will explain why Evolution as told today and Creation don’t fit together, there is also another link below on the Post called Our Awesome God’s Creation that has the Power point on it that I told you about…..

    Creation – http://freedomborn.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/gods-6-days-of-creation/

    Christian Love from both of us – Anne

    1. Dear Annie,

      Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think you and I agree that the bible is infallible, all of the bible not just part of the bible. However, assuming a literalistic interpretation for the entire bible is problematic, since it does not take into account linguistic modes of writing and other cultural differences. St. Thomas Aquinas, theologians of the Catholic Church wrote some centuries ago:

      “First, the truth of Scripture must be held inviolable. Secondly, when there are different ways of explaining a Scriptural text, no particular explanation should be held so rigidly that, if convincing arguments show it to be false, anyone dares to insist that it still is the definitive sense of the text. Otherwise unbelievers will scorn Sacred Scripture, and the way to faith will be closed to them.”

      For example, we read in Mathew 5:29:

      “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell”.

      We don’t take him literally but understand the point that he is making. Jesus was employing rabbinic hyperbole to make a very important point. Again we also understand that his parables are not necessary events that actually happen but are a teaching device to convey truth.

      So, the bible must be read in context. This not only involved understanding its cultural background but also the literally style upon which it was written. Ignoring these aspects may lead to misunderstanding and confusion. The question is: did the Holy Spirit inspire the author of Genesis to write a historical and literalistic account of creation?

      Many of the early church fathers noticed this point. For example Justin Martyr noted in Dialogue with Trypho the Jew around the year 155:

      “For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years [Gen. 5:5]. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression ‘The day of the Lord is a thousand years’ [Ps. 90:4] is connected with this subject”.

      St. Cyprian who wrote in about 250 in the Treaties:

      “The first seven days in the divine arrangement contain seven thousand years.”

      Referring to what a day could mean for God…seven thousand years signifies a very long time. As many Hebrew scholars argued that the Hebrew word YOM can mean an epoch.

      The bible is inerrant. It is God’s love letter to humanity. It contains the story of God’s love for humanity; a love that made him to endure the last measure of human cruelty, death on a Cross. However, our private interpretation of the bible is not infallible. That is why Christ in Mathew 16 left us not a book or manual but a living Church:

      “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

      Cheers,

      Caleb

      1. There is Truth and error in what you shared Caleb, what may help you to understand fully is to read the links I gave you, their not from the Internet, their from my Blog and also the last Post I wrote about my Confusion which is also about the confusion in the Churches and explains how to have assurance of God’s Truth. We are not infallible in the flesh, it must be put to death but Jesus is and as He empowers us through The Holy Spirit we know His Truth too, which will always be confirmed by Scripture or proven facts about Creation and in Him when perfected in Love we are also infallible in knowing all of His Truth.

        1John 2:26-28 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you but as the same anointing Teacheth you of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even as He hath Taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

        Colossians 2 :2 -3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in Love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

        1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is True, and we are in Him that is True, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and eternal life.

        John 15:14-15 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

        Matthew 10:26-28 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in Light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops … ( perhaps these are our Computers today )

        Psalm 32:8
        I will instruct you and teach you in the way you shall go. I will guide you with Mine eye.

        Scriptures confirm Caleb that Jesus was not saying that He would build the Church on Peter who denied Him and also who He rebuked for his fleshy understanding, yes both forgiven but it shows Peter was not Infallible either, The Church would be built on what Peter said… Jesus is the Rock (see below) and He is The Head of the Church not a man and we are the Body of Christ and so was Peter and so is the Pope and when we pray in the Spirit and in Unity (Matthew 18:18-19) (Ephesians 6:17-19 – Acts 1:13-15 – Matthew 16:19 ) as you can see by these Scriptures our prayers are answered. The problem today is the Churches are not praying in Unity or even those in their Churches, they are divided and until they are in Unity, Jesus cannot return to claim His Kingdom which we are part of. But the Unity God wants is not based on man’s fleshy understanding, reasoning or logic but on His Truth.

        Deuteronomy 32:3-5 Because I will publish the Name of the LORD, ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of Truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.

        Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

        1 Corinthians 10:3-5 And did all eat the same Spiritual meat; And did all drink the same Spiritual drink: for they drank of that Spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

        Caleb you either ask for and believe you have God’s wisdom and empowering by The Holy Spirit or you continue to Trust in others fleshy, or worldly understanding and remain in darkness, it’s your choice!

        Christian Love from both of us – Anne.

      2. Dear Annie,

        Thank you for your response. I really appreciate your zeal and Love for Christ! I think the main issue we are debating is the issue of authority. Who has the ultimate authority to interpret issues of faith and morals? As a Catholic I believe that Christ founded one Church and this Church is the pillar and foundation of truth:

        “…know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

        1 Timothy 3:15

        And Christ gave that Church authority, as we see in Mathew 16 and as the witness of the early Christian demonstrates:

        “Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist, which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

        Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]

        St. Ignatius of Antioch, the third Bishop of Antioch and student of Apostle John in such a concise passage give us a window into how the early Christian church look like. It is hierarchical, with a Bishop presiding over the Church. It has ordained priest and they celebrate the body, blood soul and divinity of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and it is a universal (catholic) church. St. Ignatious died as a martyr in around 110 under the Emperor Trajan.

        St. Ignatius was following what says in Matthew 16. Where we see how Christ 1) only founded one church, 2) that Peter was appointed as the head of that Church and 3) and that Jesus gave authority to that Church:

        “When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

        Matthew 16:13-19

        Foundation of one church:

        Notice what Jesus says: “upon this rock I will build my church” and how he did not say my churches…but my church. Only one Church not many.

        The Role of Peter:

        Moreover pay attention to the central role of Peter in this passage:

        “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

        It makes no grammatical sense that Jesus is referring to himself but to Peter…in the language that Jesus spoke there is only one word for rock so Jesus would have said: “And so I say to you, you are Rock (Kepha), and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church…”

        I will like to clarify one additional point:

        According to the Cathechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2035:

        “The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.”

        The pope is infallible only when making pronouncement about matters of faith and morals. He is a man and can err just as Peter did when his emotion got the better of him and yet he repented and Christ not only forgave him but also reinforced his mission:

        “When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

        Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

        The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.”

        John 21:15

        In His mercy Jesus allow Peter to proclaim his Love three times, follow by commissioning him to take care of his sheeps…
        The Authority of the Church:

        “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

        This passage is beautiful not only in what it teaches but also how it shows that the Old Testament reveals the New Testament and how the New Testament fulfills the Old Testatment:

        On that day I will summon my servant
        Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;

        I will clothe him with your robe,
        gird him with your sash,
        confer on him your authority.
        He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
        and to the house of Judah.

        I will place the key* of the House of David on his shoulder;
        what he opens, no one will shut,
        what he shuts, no one will open.

        I will fix him as a peg in a firm place,
        a seat of honor for his ancestral house;

        On him shall hang all the glory of his ancestral house:
        descendants and offspring,
        all the little dishes, from bowls to jugs.

        Isaiah 22:20-24

        During the time of King David, the king would appoint a trusted person to serve in the office of Prime Minister. This person was in charge of daily operations of the kingdom and as a sign of this authority he carries the keys of the kingdom around his neck. The people who Jesus was talking to were Jews and they knew their scriptures very well and immediately recognized that Christ was giving Peter authority over his kingdom on Earth, the Church.
        This is why we read in Matthew 18:15-20:

        “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

        It is clear from this passage that it is the Church that has ultimate authority:

        “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

        Moreover, we read in Ephesian 4:1-6 that there is only one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism and one God:

        “I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all”.

        Christ founded only one Church not many different churches with different sets of beliefs, moral teaching and missions. This is why he founded one Church and gave her authority so that all may be united under one Lord, one faith and one baptism. Today we can see what happens when people assume that authority and claimed that the Holy Spirit inspires them. There thousands of Christian denominations some preaching heterodox doctrines and others while claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit hold opposing view on the same issue.

        In the mist of this confusion where do you go? The only church that has never waiver nor changed her teachings for two thousand years is the Catholic Church not even once. Even through bad and immoral popes never has the Catholic Church changed her doctrine on faith and morals to accommodate their immorality.

        I trust in Christ and in his words in Matthew 28:20:

        “I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

        His words are truly with us in the Bible. His teaching is truly with us in the teaching of the Catholic Church. His real presence body, blood, soul and divinity are with us in the Holy Eucharist. I follow Him and only Him.

        In charity,

        Caleb

        PS The context of 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is Exodus 17:6. Paul is referring to the rock at Horeb:

        “Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel”.

  4. Sorry Caleb but you are just saying what your Church propagates, your also not reading what I share, so really what is the point of continuing, I can also look up links on the Internet and as I said before, I would find many conflicting view points, it would be wise if you went to Jesus not man for your understanding.

    But be aware Caleb that The Roman Catholic Church is not the Church that was started by the Early Christians who Jesus Christ is the Head of, it was started my Constantine and Pagan practices were accepted in it’s teaching because they were his beliefs even though it is claimed by some that he converted to Christianity.

    God’s Church is of the heart, it’s not about rules and doctrines and it never promoted idolatry of mankind or graven images, their focus was on God alone and He was their Authority and He still is today of His Church world wide and it may surprise you Caleb that some Roman Catholics are also part of His Church, I too was Born a Roman Catholic and others like me follow God’s Truth today and not mans.

    Christian Love from both of us – Anne

    1. Dear Annie,

      Sorry for the quick post but it is late here in the states. I just want to clarify a few points. First I did read what you wrote. I tried my best to answer your comments. Moreover I didn’t post any “link” from the web…but I researched the topic. I wonder if you had the time to read what I wrote.

      What say you about the witness of St. Igatious of Antioch, Who wrote in the early second century and knew the apostle John? To say that the early Christian did not started the Catholic Church is to completely ignore the writtings of the early chuch. As Cardinal John Henry Newman (a converted from the Anglican Church to the Catholic Church in the 19th century) said:

      To be deep into History is to cease to be protestant.

      He said this because as he studied the early church fathers he discovered the Catholic Church. The writting of Clemen of Rome, Polycard, St. Irreneous Justin Martyr,John Christodom and St. Augustine show not only an inmense love for Christ but complete devotion for His bride, his Church.

      Moreover, Can you provide the historical evidence that the Catholic Church was started by Constatine or that Pagan practice where accepted in her teaching? The teachings and tradition of the Church can be traced since apostolic times before Constatine.

      I agree with you that God’s church is from the heart but what about the Sermon on the Mount, those are a bunch of rules? What about the doctrine that no one enters the kingdom of heaven if it is not through Christ:

      Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

      John 14:6

      Rules and doctrines are important because they all points towards God and his mercy. The Catholic Church has never promoted idolatry, to the contrary it condems it. Perhaps what you perceived as idolatry comes from a misunderstanding of what the images of Saints represents. Catholics don’t worship them or a engrieven image. They served as a reminder of people who God touched and set apart as an example for us. Also we don’t worship them, we ask for their interception just as I have asked you to pray for me I ask Mary to pray for me…

      I believe that I reasonably showed you scriptural evidence that Christ founded one Church and that that Church has fought heresies, defendend the dignity of human life and preach the gospel for 2,000 years. The historical evidence is there you just have to be open and see it.

      In Charity,

      Caleb

  5. Do you know what the two greatest Commandments are Caleb, they sum up the whole Law, but if we have to make ourselves obey God forget it! and He doesn’t make us, He doesn’t want puppets, we need to want to obey Him because we Love Him and Love others, and we follow His guidelines the same as the early Church did, not man made rules and doctrines,

    When doing your research Caleb did you go to Jesus and seek Him to lead you into all Truth with the confirmation of the Scriptures or did you go to the Internet and Trust what man told you?.

    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    This is very True, and we are to pray to Jesus because He is our only Intercessor, the Scriptures tell us He was the only one who never sinned or He could not have been The Sacrificial Lamb and redeem us, they also tell us everyone else living or dead has sinned all have fallen short of the glory of God and to say we haven’t and so don’t need Salvation is calling God a liar.

    When people ask me to pray for them, I pray to Jesus no one else, we are to pray in The Spirit and in Truth, Jesus as part of The Godhead or Trinity as They are called today, advocates for us, sadly man sometimes focuses on their own understanding or others instead of God’s and so they walk in darkness.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    Christian Love from both of us – Anne.

    1. Dear Annie,
      As I am writing this response, I worried how it translates as you read it. Text can be deaf tone and you may get the wrong impression. As I know that your response come from a great place in your heart I also want to let you know that mine to.

      Do you know what the two greatest Commandments are Caleb, they sum up the whole Law, but if we have to make ourselves obey God forget it! and He doesn’t make us, He doesn’t want puppets, we need to want to obey Him because we Love Him and Love others, and we follow His guidelines the same as the early Church did, not man made rules and doctrines,
      Can you be more specific as to what man made rules and doctrines are you referring to? Maybe in that way we can focus our discussion.

      When doing your research Caleb did you go to Jesus and seek Him to lead you into all Truth with the confirmation of the Scriptures or did you go to the Internet and Trust what man told you?.

      I just want to share this prayer from St. Thomas Aquinas that I make every time I study anything:

      Grant me, O Lord my God,
      a mind to know you,
      a heart to seek you,
      wisdom to find you,
      conduct pleasing to you,
      faithful perseverance in waiting for you,
      and a hope of finally embracing you.

      Amen

      St Thomas Aquinas

      Yes, I do pray for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide me in wisdom and knowledge. God gave us the gift of faith but he also gave us the gift of reason that informs our actions and our conscience. Feelings can be fleeting and thereby one has to be careful and test everything. To answer your question I don’t trust in the “man from the Internet” but in the Church that Christ founded, as St. Augustine said:

      “I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church”

      Against the Letter of Mani Called The Foundation

      Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
      This is very True, and we are to pray to Jesus because He is our only Intercessor, the Scriptures tell us He was the only one who never sinned or He could not have been The Sacrificial Lamb and redeem us, they also tell us everyone else living or dead has sinned all have fallen short of the glory of God and to say we haven’t and so don’t need Salvation is calling God a liar.

      When people ask me to pray for them, I pray to Jesus no one else, we are to pray in The Spirit and in Truth, Jesus as part of The Godhead or Trinity as They are called today, advocates for us, sadly man sometimes focuses on their own understanding or others instead of God’s and so they walk in darkness.
      1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

      I agreed Christ is the only mediator between God and man. The Catholic Church has always held this truth. This does not mean that we cannot mediate from each other through and in Christ. This is why St. Paul exhorts Christians to pray for each other just a few verses before in 1 Tm 2:1-5.
      “First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity”.
      St. Paul also says in Romans 8:38-39:

      “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

      So as Catholic we believe that death cannot separate us from the Love of God and thereby those in heaven are in so a unique position to ask Christ mediation for us…in order words we are not cut off from the Body of Christ after death on the contrary we are more perfectly united with him. We can see this in Revelation 5:8

      “When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones”.

      Again you keep mentioned the early Church but the early Church in Acts as well as the writing of those early Christians that knew the apostle reveal a strong Catholic theology.

      In charity,

      Caleb

      PS I just saw that you posted a new response…I will read it and get back to you…but now I have to go (again…life can be so busy!)

  6. I was thinking Caleb last night about the understanding some have of the Scriptures even Theologians or Teachers and how they have depended on human understanding and not on God’s.

    You mentioned it yourself with Mathew 5:29 yes it is True, we are all part of the Body of Christ and if one part is sinning especially those who Teach because they are our eyes being the vessels God equips, motivates and empowers to Teach us, we are to rebuke and warn them and if they ignore this we are to no longer fellowship with them the same as others who continue to sin in the Church because they can pollute the whole Body, of course God gives guidelines how to do this, such as there has to be more than one witness etc

    Do you know Caleb what Paul was referring to in the Scripture below, it has been misunderstood for Centuries long before Paul was Born and especially by some Translators of the Scriptures as we can see in the two different Translations, some have interpreted without Spiritual understanding what the old Hebrew was in reference to. This misunderstanding by many over the years has caused great suffering especially to Children because violence or abuse causes more violence and abuse.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize (N.IV)

    1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.(KJV)

    When Jesus got the whip out you will notice He did not inflict harm on anybody but He sure got His message across and Paul like Jesus was firm in rebuking but they never used physical violence on others but they sure received heaps. So Caleb what do you believe Paul is referring to when he tells us he beats his body as the N.I.V Translation tells us, certainly not what the Monks and some others in the Church use to do.

    Blessings – Anne

    1. Dear Annie,

      I was thinking Caleb last night about the understanding some have of the Scriptures even Theologians or Teachers and how they have depended on human understanding and not on God’s.

      You mentioned it yourself with Mathew 5:29 yes it is True, we are all part of the Body of Christ and if one part is sinning especially those who Teach because they are our eyes being the vessels God equips, motivates and empowers to Teach us, we are to rebuke and warn them and if they ignore this we are to no longer fellowship with them the same as others who continue to sin in the Church because they can pollute the whole Body, of course God gives guidelines how to do this, such as there has to be more than one witness etc

      This is very true. Matthew 18:15-20 give us the blueprint as to how to go about correcting fellow Christian’s who have offended us:

      “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

      The last mediator is the Church. That why Christ founded one Church and guide her through the Holy Spirit.

      Do you know Caleb what Paul was referring to in the Scripture below, it has been misunderstood for Centuries long before Paul was Born and especially by some Translators of the Scriptures as we can see in the two different Translations, some have interpreted without Spiritual understanding what the old Hebrew was in reference to. This misunderstanding by many over the years has caused great suffering especially to Children because violence or abuse causes more violence and abuse.

      1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize (N.IV)

      1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.(KJV)

      It is very sad that people misinterpretation causes harm to children by extreme corporal punishment based on this misunderstanding. However, St. Paul is very clear in the imagery that he uses to convey his message. A literal translation of the Greek will be: “I beat the face black and blue”. Just as boxer summits himself to such punishment that turn his face black and blue so does St. Paul summit his body to such punishment in order no to be disqualified. I don’t know if he literally refers to corporal punishment but it is clear with this strong imagery the message that he is conveying. He submit his body in order no to be disqualified from the race.

      I like the Douay-Rheims translation:

      But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

  7. Hi Calab sad that those who profess to have understanding of the original Greek only promote what is Secular and do not have Spiritual insight, they are blinded by their flesh, this is why we must put it to death (see below) and this is what Paul was referring to in this verse and in others and not in doing physical harm to himself.

    Galatians 24 -26 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    Colossians 3:4-6 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

    2 Corinthians 7: 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting Holiness in the fear of God.

    Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Romans 8 :12-15 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. or if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    The Rod of correction Caleb, is The Holy Spirit, He is also our Comforter Psalm 23 He Teaches us all Truth as from The Lord, He is One, with The Father and with Jesus who is The Living Word, all in The Godhead or Trinity as They are called today.

    1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these Three are One.

    Christian Love from both of us -Anne

    P.S I will respond Caleb to your Question in your previous reply tonight, which will be your Morning on the 26/6

    1. Dear Annie,

      Yes we should walk in spirit but also our bodies are good, since it was fashioned by God’s hands! As long as we follow his words as revealed to us in scripture. Hope all is well in the land of down under!!!

      Please say hi to Ron next time you talk to him!

      Cheers,

      Caleb

      1. Sorry Caleb but you are not understanding what the evil flesh is but than others don’t either and so they walk in defeat and are controlled by their flesh instead of having Victory over it.

        Paul is not talking about our outer shell or physical body but our evil nature that seeks to be in control, we were Born with Adam’s seed and when we knowingly chose to sin we were contaminated, yes we have all sinned, some like me more than others but than just disobeying one Commandment is like disobeying them all because it shows we don’t have God’s Love, this is not in reference to those Laws that Jesus fulfilled in bringing in the New Covenant, such as the Sabbath who He is the fulfillment of.

        Paul talks about his own battle with his flesh in Romans 7 and then tells us how to put it to death by the Spirit in .Romans 8 and the other Scriptures I gave you before and but there are more references to the evil flesh throughout the Scriptures.

        Romans 8 :12-15 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. or if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

        Blessings – Anne – I’ll be in touch later .

  8. Your Question Caleb…Can you be more specific as to what man made rules and doctrines are you referring to? Maybe in that way we can focus our discussion.

    Any rules or doctrines that man enforces that are not recorded in God’s inspired written word and confirmed through the empowering of The Holy Spirit (1Corinthians 2:9-16) are man made rules but this does not include the added books of the Apocalyptic, these were not included in the Cannon of Scripture, which is confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls, so cannot be used as a reference.

    The Apocalyptic books were not inspired by God although they have some reference to the Truth being copied from the Scriptures that we use today but they also have Folklore based on Superstition, Legends and old wives tales, they are not mentioned anywhere by name in the K.J.V which is the closest to the original, so has less of man’s errors in translation.

    The New Testament Gospels also have been dated from circa 40 AD to 90 AD. The New Testament Gospels are quoted by the early Church fathers and the Canon was decided long before the Nicean council.

    Let’s also remember it was the Church leaders at that time who had Jesus killed and whom He rebuked too for their unwillingness to accept His Divinity as being in The Godhead or Trinity as They are called today and it was their Church who Emperor St. Constantine protected and reformed, not the early Church that is mentioned in Acts, all of those Church Leaders were Martyred except John who was confined on the Island of Pathos and wrote at that time Book of Revelation.

    I would appreciate Caleb if you would please share the Scriptures that confirm we are to pray to those who are dead to have our sins forgiven, like Mary and those that the Roman Catholic Church called Saints which is what we all are anyway in Christ Jesus and where does it confirm repetitious prayers like when people use the Rosemary.

    Christian Love – Anne

    1. Dear Annie,

      There is a lot of groundwork I need to do in order to answer your post. First, you continued to ignore the historical witness given by the apostolic fathers concerning the early Christian Church. These are martyrs who knew the apostles and boldly preached the named of Christ and defended the Church that he founded. Many Protestants have come to the Catholic Church by reading the apostolic fathers and discovering that the Catholic Church as preached the same Creed since the time of the apostles until today. You cannot keep claiming that the early church believes agrees with your interpretation of scriptures but the historical evidence says the opposite. Second, I showed you scriptural evidence that Christ founded one Church and gave her authority to bind and to loose (1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:13-19, Isaiah 22:19-24, Matthew 18:15-20, John 21:15, Matthew 28:20 and many other…and yet you did not responded to this references). You implicitly believe in this authority because it was the Catholic Church that settled the cannon of scripture first at the Synod of Rome in 382 and later at the regional Councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419). St. Augustine, an early father of the Church, who greatly influence western thought and the reformers said:

      “I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church”

      Against the Letter of Mani Called The Foundation

      Where in the bible it says that the bible is the sole rule of faith? Nowhere in the bible you will find such as statement. Quite the opposite St. Paul says:

      “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you…”

      1 Corinthians 11:2

      “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”

      2 Thessalonians 2:15

      “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us”

      2 Thessalonians 3:6

      Yes, the bible is the written word of God. No question about that and no teaching of the Catholic Church contradict anything that is in the bible. If you take time to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the teaching of the Catholic Church) you will be impressed how immerse in scripture all the teachings are.

      Now, to your specific comment:

      1 Corinthians 2:9-16

      Nowhere in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 says “any rules or doctrines that man enforces that are not recorded in God’s inspired written word and confirmed through the empowering of The Holy Spirit”. However it does says that it is the Spirit that brings us to the knowledge of God. CS Lewis reformulates this by saying that reason alone can only take you so far but that you need faith, a gift of the Holy Spirit, in order to make that final jump. Moreover it is the promise of Christ that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect His Church from error:

      “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you”.

      John 14:26

      “…And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

      Mathew 28:20

      Book of Revelation

      I hope I am not misunderstanding your comments pertaining the Book of Revelation, since it also was included in the King James Bible. If I understand you correctly then on which authority do you exclude the Book of Revelation as the inspired word of God? This is very troubling. If you distrust the Book of Revelation then why not removed the letter of James as Luther wanted or the book of Hebrew as some in the Early Church wanted to do? Moreover, where is your evidence that the Book of Revelation contains “folklore based on Superstition, legends and old wives tales”?

      Comments on Church leaders

      Quite frankly I am confused by your last paragraph. We need to make some distinctions. First when you refer to Church leaders you are referring to the leaders of the Sanhedrin, right? It makes no sense biblically or historically to conflate early Christian church with the Jewish leaders, as your comments implies. It deeply worries me that you make this accusation without a scintilla of biblical or historical evidence. Again, Constantine did not included new doctrines to the Church. If you want to make that case then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that this is the case.

      Praying to the Saints

      I made this clear in one of my previous responses:

      I agreed Christ is the only mediator between God and man. The Catholic Church has always held this truth. This does not mean that we cannot mediate from each other through and in Christ. This is why St. Paul exhorts Christians to pray for each other just a few verses before in 1 Tm 2:1-5.
      “First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity”.
      St. Paul also says in Romans 8:38-39:

      “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

      So as Catholic we believe that death cannot separate us from the Love of God and thereby those in heaven are in so a unique position to ask Christ mediation for us…in order words we are not cut off from the Body of Christ after death on the contrary we are more perfectly united with him. We can see this in Revelation 5:8

      “When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones”.

      Rosary

      I agree with you that Christ forbade meaningless repetitious prayers in Matthew 6:7 however, context here is important. Jesus was referring to the meaningless repetitions that the pagans used to babble. It is the meaningless part that Jesus takes exception to no the fact that it is repetitious. Otherwise Christ will condemn Psalms 136 because it is a prayer with the recurrent refrain “His mercy endures forever” or the great Holy Holy Holy is the Lord in Isaiah 6:3 that we also hear in the Book of Revelation 4:8:

      “Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

      The prayers in the Holy Rosary are neither vain nor meaningless repetitions since they are based on scripture and proclaim the glory of God.

      In Charity,

      Caleb

  9. Before we continue Caleb, I just want to share with you that I have known and still know Catholics, who are very Loving, caring people and who Love The Lord just like myself and others in different denominations do and you too. We are all people of worth or Jesus would not have died for us.

    My birth Mother was Catholic and no doubt had me Christened before she abandoned me, even though Baby Baptism is not confirmed in Scripture. I went to a Catholic Pre-School and for a few months after she abandoned me I also went to a Catholic School, my teachers were Nuns, I will leave the link below that shares about the rest of my Childhood to save detail here. After my birth Mother left, I was going to be cared for in a Catholic Orphanage, except my father and his wife decided to look after me instead, although at the time my fathers wife did not know I was her husbands child, conceived through Adultery but she did later.

    Childhood – http://freedomborn.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/the-early-years-a-little-lost-girl/

    Now some hard facts Caleb, there are more ex-Catholics in Cults than any other Denomination because they were not encouraged to read the Scriptures for themselves with the empowering of the Holy Spirit and so don’t recognise man’s error or heresy.

    Revelation as accepted in the Cannon of Scripture is not in reference to the Apocalyptic, these books were not included in the Cannon of Scripture but added by the Roman Catholic Church later. They are not inspired by God because they have error in them although they have some reference to the Truth having copied some parts of the other Scriptures that we use today but they also have Folklore based on Superstition, Legends and old wives tales, they are not mentioned anywhere by name in the accepted K.J.V which is the closest to the original, so has less of man’s errors in translation. The Apocalyptic books are like some other early Manuscripts and some later Translations of the Bible, where they have Truth but have deleted other Truth and added their own beliefs that are not confirmed by accepted Scriptures or mentioned in them and often contradict them.

    God warns about Man made Traditions in Mark7- Matthew15 and…..

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Yes there are good Traditions too and they are mentioned in Scripture and they all come from Love, like caring for widows and Orphans, helping others in need, supporting those in Ministry etc

    The early Church did not pray to Mary or the Saints, they did not pay to have their sins forgiven or to get out of Purgatory, which is not mentioned in the Scriptures either, even by an other name.

    If you believe these facts are in error Caleb, please show me in Scripture where it tells us to do them, if you can’t then they are just Man made traditions which God warns us about. I’m not interested in what any person says regardless of who they are, only God’s Truth as confirmed in Scripture or Creation with proven facts. If people share His Truth from the Scriptures to confirm what they believe, than I listen to them, if not I move on.

    Christian Love from both of us – Anne

    1. Dear Anne,

      I was very touched by your story. I can’t imagine the hurt and anguish that you must have endured as a child. I am at lost when confronted with such evil but through His Grace today you are that light that shines his Love and Mercy every time you tell your story. Keep that witness, such suffering never goes to waste when we united it to Christ suffering.

      Here are the scriptural reference for purgatory and infant baptism:

      Purgatory

      1 Corinthians 3:13-15

      “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
      The basic doctrine of purgatory can be summarized in an exchange between Samuel Johnson, a devout Anglican and English poet and James Boswell in 1769:

      Boswell: “What do you think, Sir, of purgatory, as believed by the Roman Catholics?”

      Johnson: “Why, Sir, it is a very harmless doctrine. They are of the opinion that the generality of mankind are neither so obstinately wicked as to deserve everlasting punishment, nor so good as to merit being admitted into the society of blessed spirits; and therefore that God is graciously pleased to allow a middle state, where they may be purified by certain degrees of suffering. You see, Sir, there is nothing unreasonable in this.”

      Boswell: “But then, Sir, their Masses for the dead?”

      Johnson: “Why, Sir, if it be at once established that there are souls in purgatory, it is as proper to pray for them, as for our brethren of mankind who are yet in this life.”

      Although Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins most of us still have attachment to sin in other words we are not perfect and we know from scripture that nothing unclean may enter the kingdom of God:

      Revelation 21:27

      “But nothing unclean shall enter it…”

      Thereby there most be a process in which we are clean before we enter heaven this is what 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 refers when it says:
      If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
      I know you don’t like links but here is a comprehensive explanation to most common objections against the doctrine of purgatory from a former protestant:

      http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

      Infant Baptism

      Acts 2:38-39

      Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

      For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

      In Acts 16:15,33 and 1 Corinthian 1:16 it is implied that adults and children were baptized, as when the head of a household is converted his entire household was also baptized.

      Praying to Saints

      In my previous response I gave you scriptural reference for praying to Saints in heaven but I will like to offer you a great article on the subject by Patrick Madrid called Any Friend of Christ is a Friend of Mine:

      http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/any-friend-of-god-is-a-friend-of-mine

      Book of Revelation

      I am still confused by your statement that the Book of Revelation was not included in the cannon of Scripture? Where is the evidence? The Book of Revelation was always part of the cannon of Scriptures because it was read in the liturgy of early Christian churches. Nothing was added. I think you need to make a stronger argument based on historical facts.

      Traditions

      Colossians 2:8

      “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ”.

      Context is important; St. Paul is referring to traditions of men, as the school of philosophy. When the Catholic Church refers to Traditions, the church refers to the Traditions pass on by the apostles:

      “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”
      2 Thess. 2:15

      Still I the question remain: Where in the bible it says that the bible is the sole rule of Faith? Also, what about the witness of the early Church the writting of the apostolic father such as St. Ignatious of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Polycard and others…

      In charity,

      Caleb

      1. Sorry Caleb for confusing you about the APOCRYPHA by calling it Apocalyptic by mistake, it was how my spellchecker corrected it and with being Dyslectic I didn’t notice the error till later which has happened before but being analytical and also being able to see outside the box compensates for my weaknesses, this is why I give thanks for my disability even though I don’t for the errors with spelling, it can be embarrassing, like once I said …. I had mental fatatude instead of fatigue and another time that someone was decaffeinated instead of decapitated and there has been others errors, so I’m now thankful to Firefox for their help but unfortunately they do not always correct as needed, it depends what you write, so I still use a written Dictionary when something is not clear. As I said before I realized my mistake later with the spelling of the APOCRYPHA, sorry again.

        Take Care – Christian Love – Anne

  10. Dear Caleb, I appreciate that you are a man who seeks after God with all your heart and you are also a Loving Truthful man but you are Trusting in what Men say not God. Jesus is our only Teacher and will lead us into all Truth, I will not accept anything from a man or a woman that is not confirmed by God’s Truth in Scripture or by proven facts in Creation. Yes we can have the gift of Teaching but they are not man’s or woman’s words they are Gods and are confirmed in the Bible.

    Matthew 23:8-10 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your Father; for One is your Father, He who is in Heaven. And do not be called Teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. ( NKJV )

    1John 2:26-28 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

    Colossians 2 :2 -3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in Love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is True, and we are in Him that is True, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and eternal life.

    John 15:14-15 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.(KJV)

    Matthew 10:26-28 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in Light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops (KJV)

    Psalm 32:8I will instruct you and teach you in the way you shall go. I will guide you with Mine eye.

    The 22 Chapters of REVELATION are recognised in The Cannon of Scripture the added books of the Apocrypha are not , they are below…..

    APOCRYPHA – Examples of Old Testament Apocrypha are the Ethiopian Book of Enoch, Jubilees (both of which are canonical in the Abyssinian Church of Ethiopia); the Life of Adam and Eve (Not Genesis) and the Pseudo-Philo. Examples of New Testament Apocrypha are the Gospel of Peter, the attribution of the Epistle to the Laodiceans to Paul, and Acts of Thomas, which few would claim was actually written by Thomas. Other examples of New Testament Apocrypha are the Shepherd of Hermas and Gospel of Barnabas, and perhaps the Gospel of Judas. are the Ethiopian Book of Enoch, Jubilees (both of which are canonical in the Abyssinian Church of Ethiopia)

    BAPTISM -When the Bible talks about Baptism including in Acts 16 and 1 Corinthian1, it is only for those who believe, not Babies and Children, they are under Grace until they are older enough to understand right from wrong, they are not punished for the sins of their Parents either. Some dedicate their Children promising to bring them up to know the Lord but it does not save them, as adults they need to repent and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Before Pentecost water Baptism like now, was for acknowledging our sin and as Jesus showed us, our identification with Him, just as He identified with The Father, Jesus is the only one who never sinned, which shows His Divinity, some lived righteously seeking after God, like Job, John the Baptist and Mary, etc but all have sinned.

    Being Baptized for the dead is also about identification not Salvation, which only comes by a personal belief in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour shown by our repentance, only God knows our hearts not man, The Old Testament Saints who sacrificed animals for their sins, had the promise of Salvation and were covered by the blood of Christ but we have the reality and are washed in His blood. We need to be Baptized by The Holy Spirit.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is Born of the Spirit is Spirit.

    Mark 1:8 8 I indeed have baptized you with water but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    TRADITIONS – The early Church Traditions that we are still to follow today, were shared and passed on by the Spoken word in letters they are all confirmed in the reconised Scriptures as reveled to us by Jesus through the empowering of The Holy Spirit, not by a book written by man.

    PURGATORY – is not confirmed in Scripture, when we die we go to either Hell or Heaven not an in between place and the chasm a deep opening in the earth’s surface that separates them, is uncrossable.

    The Scripture you shared (1Corinthians3:13-15) is in reference to those who do fleshy works not God’s, they work for their Salvation in the flesh and not by the empowering of The Holy Spirit , they have a form of godliness but deny the power, they have not been Born Again of God’s seed, (1John3:9) they have not put their flesh to death or have they been perfected in Love, they will escape the flames, if they have heart repentance even on their death bed and if they are still alive when Jesus returns but they will not have any rewards for their fleshy works.

    2 Timothy 2:19-21 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, let every one that nameth the Name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the Master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

    I will now move on Caleb but please remember – Christian Love Always from both of us – Anne.

    1. Dear Annie,

      Thank you for your kind words. Keep me in your prayers. The last few weeks have been challenging but praise be to God things are starting to look up!

      I think we both agree that Tradition and Scripture cannot contradict each other. The main question that we are dealing is who has the authority to properly interpret the bible. It seems from your arguments that we all have that authority if we invoke the Holy Spirit but may I asked you why then there are so many different sects and denomination all claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit but with different and contradictory ways to interpret the bible? Who is right? When Christ says in Matthew 18:17: “If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church”. Which Church has the authority to solve matter of salvation? The witness of history points to only one church, the Catholic Church. To ignored the witness of the early Christians is to ignore the history of Christ’s Church and sadly it also ignores the blood of many Christian who where martyred for the faith…many of them not only died in defiance of the pagan culture but also defending against heresies from other heterodox Christians. I believe that Christ founded a church so that she can teach his word and defend his teaching against heresy: “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18).

      Pertaining Book of Revelation

      Thank you for the clarification. I really thought you were referring to the Book of Revelation when you said that God did not inspired it and that it was never part of the cannon of scripture. However I must emphasized that the books that you mentioned in your response: Gospel of Peter, Epistle to the Laodiceans and Acts of Thomas, Shepherd of Hermas, Gospel of Barnabas, and the Gospel of Judas, where never in the Cannon of Scripture because the Catholic Church excluded them.

      I think you are referring to the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament (referred by protestants as Apocrypha). These are seven books from the Old Testament: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith, and parts of two others, Daniel and Esther. These books have always been part of the Cannon of Scripture until the reformation.

      Infant Baptism

      Nowhere in scriptures you will find Christians been instructed to dedicate their babies instead of baptize them neither you will find any restriction not to baptize babies. On the contrary St. Paul draws a direct comparison between circumcision of babies and baptism when he noted in Colossian 2:11 that baptism has replaced circumcision. Moreover Acts 16:15, 33 (…he was baptized, with all his family) and 1 Corinthian 1:16 (where St. Paul says “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas”) implies that adults and children were baptized.

      The fact that Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodist, and other protestant denominations baptize babies exemplifies that salvation is a total unmerited gift from God that we cannot do anything to merit it.

      Purgatory

      I beg to disagree with you. Purgatory is very biblical. You interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3:13 neglects the fact that this people have been saved, they ran the race and are going to heaven but they need to be purified first:

      “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

      A man’s work can be disorder desires, lack of forgiveness in their hearts, anything that separate them from perfect charity. The key here is that they are saved but only as through fire, meaning purification, since you cannot go to heaven unless you are not Born Again.

      I appreciate the bible verses you send me but I am still waiting for you to show me from scripture where it says that scripture is the sole rule of faith or where there is a list of inspired book of scripture in the bible…

      It has been a charitable dialog and I appreciate it very much.

  11. I choose not to argue Caleb or to agree to disagree, I share God’s Truth and move on, which I have done with you, I came back to respond to your question out of respect and to give you a Link that will explain further.

    Truth- http://freedomborn.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/my-battle-with-confusion/

    You asked Caleb; how do I know I have the Truth, as you can see confirmed below, I asked God for His wisdom and for the empowering of The Holy Spirit, I was not born with them but I do not doubt I now have both but those who do doubt that I have because it is not just for me, are saying they can’t have them, which is sad as man’s fleshy worldly wisdom, logic and reasoning is a dead end and also they are saying that God does not keep His promises. I’m still learning but I have no doubt what Jesus has shown me is His Truth. We either believe what God tells us or we don’t but The Holy Spirit will not say something to some one the contradicts what He has said to someone else.

    Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

    James 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?

    1 Corinthians 2:9-16 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that Love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the Mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? but we have the Mind of Christ.

    1John 2:26-28 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you but as the same anointing Teacheth you of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath Taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

    Matthew 10:26-28 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops (KJV) perhaps our Computers.

    Christian Love from both of us – Anne.

    1. Dear Annie,

      So sorry that it has taken me so long to reply but I have unable to even log in to word press in the past week. Please keep me and my mom in your prayers!

      I appreciate your candid reponses and I hope that I at the very least clarified some positions or perhaps misunderstanding about what the Catholic Church teaches.

      I agree with you that God is faithfull and he will not lead you astray. I know that you can find a lot of truths in many Christian denominations. The love for scriptures, the fellowship and commitment to life and the defense of Christian social witness are fruit of that uniting spirit. There are far more things that unites us than separates us and as our world sink into the false promises of secularism the more we have to pray for each other.

      Yet the reality is that there are thousands denominations all claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and yet preaching doctrines that contradict each others and the bible. Some deny the real presense of the Body and Soul of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist by claiming is just a symbol others like Lutherans, Anglicans and some Methodists beleive in the real presense, others believe that baptism is just an ordenance and symbol but St. Peter says Baptism now saves you (1 Peter 3:21)…even so called liberal Christian Churches are recognizing same-sex marriage and claim to be inspired by God…so who is right? who has the authority to correct and defend Christian Orthodoxy?

      Best,

      Caleb

      I can’t resists but I know you will appreciate this quote from St. Augustine

      “You made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until they rest in you”.

  12. Hi Caleb, yes others including me have had problems longing onto WordPress, God gave me a gateway once when I couldn’t and no doubt others have been blessed this way too.

    There is only one Baptism that saves us and that is by The Holy Spirit, not by water, as the Scriptures confirm. There is also only One Truth and that’s God’s and unless we are in agreement there can be no real Unity of The Spirit because God’s Truth is all about Love and it has no error.

    You may be blessed Caleb by the Link below which shares the words of Mother Teresa.

    Freedom in Love – http://freedomborn.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/mother-teresa-of-calcutta/

    Christian Love Always from both of us – Anne

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